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01/07/2003, 11:57 AM David May Joined on 15/04/2003 Posts 48 Re: QNH and QFE ? Hi Pete I like Phillips acroynm - that could have saved me a bit. I had a slight problem as during my time a couple of the instructors have gone off to do 'flying eye' jobs and the amount of flap to use isn't a static thing and I had one saying two stages and then the third if you need it with another saying bung it all in at once. I think in reality it depends on your approach and you just have to learn to judge it. Having said that it's probably because I've had slightly inconsistent instructors that I've challenged them on it which has almost certainly made it stick a bit more in my head. In answer to your question about how long, it was about 12.5 hrs. But I did cheat a bit as I've got various flight sims at home (flight sim 98 and flight unlimited II) - not the latest versions and you can practice circuits till the cows come home on those and I actually find them harder to fly than the real thing (both are available in PC world for £4.99 each and you can even get a VFR england and wales for FS98 from GAME for £9.99 where you can practice at your own local airport as well, you can even download a C152 off the web to fly in). Obviously depends on whether you have a PC or not and doesn't necessarily mean you'll fly the real thing any better but at least you can get your check lists out and practice your procedures (without radio calls though unfortunately - you have to pay mega bucks for that). I don't know for certain whether 12.5 hrs is better or worse than average. I got the impression the average is usually between 10-15 but no-one stated anything specific. Was it like that for me? - pretty much - just when I thought I'd cracked it I'd forget something major (even forgot to flare once - luckily I didn't break the plane, but it was a pretty hard whack into the runway) Don't get downhearted - I'm sure you'll get it - as they say practice makes perfect. Keep it up Dave    Report

01/07/2003, 1:33 PM Pete Murphy Joined on 06/04/2003 Posts 46 Re: QNH and QFE ? Hello Guys, Thanks for your advice and tips, it's good to know that other people have had, or is having the same experiences as me, i think it's one of the best things i've done is to join this forum, as i've not spoken to many student Pilots at my School, i've just met a couple and i'll make sure i share my experiences with them and try and pick their brains a little and see if it's as empty as mine, mine is like a seive all the infomation just runs through it ;-) I'll let you know when i go Solo and how long it takes, i think i've done around 7-8hrs or so Flying time as my lessons last for around 40-45 mins yet, i think they are done this way so you don't get overwhelmed and get some confidence, but your always looking for and mistakes and errors you do aren't you ?? instead of trying to enjoy the lesson(s) i know one week i'll do something the way it should be done and the next week when i come to do the same thing i won't know what the instructor is talking about ! Once again guys thanks for your advice. Pete    Report

01/07/2003, 1:33 PM Pete Murphy Joined on 06/04/2003 Posts 46 Re: QNH and QFE ? Hello Guys, Thanks for your advice and tips, it's good to know that other people have had, or is having the same experiences as me, i think it's one of the best things i've done is to join this forum, as i've not spoken to many student Pilots at my School, i've just met a couple and i'll make sure i share my experiences with them and try and pick their brains a little and see if it's as empty as mine, mine is like a seive all the infomation just runs through it ;-) I'll let you know when i go Solo and how long it takes, i think i've done around 7-8hrs or so Flying time as my lessons last for around 40-45 mins yet, i think they are done this way so you don't get overwhelmed and get some confidence, but your always looking for and mistakes and errors you do aren't you ?? instead of trying to enjoy the lesson(s) i know one week i'll do something the way it should be done and the next week when i come to do the same thing i won't know what the instructor is talking about ! Once again guys thanks for your advice. Pete    Report

01/07/2003, 3:01 PM David May Joined on 15/04/2003 Posts 48 Re: QNH and QFE ? Hi Pete Sounds like you're about the same progress speed as I am. I think I was on 10B maybe an hour earlier, but that's not much and is probably due to the exact order the school run you through things. Items like the landing checks you were talking about earlier don't really kick in until you start doing circuits anyway and I was well into those before I started remembering it all. I really don't think you've anything to worry about at the moment. Just keep at it and keep enjoying it. On thing to bear in mind though on the financial side as it caught me out. When you start circuits you end up doing touch and goes - where you land then go straight back up again. These aren't as expensive as the landing fees, but you do still have to pay for each one. I think at Southend, where I am, they're about 7 quid each time so if you do 5 touch and goes that's another £35 on your lesson fees. So depending on how rich you are you may have to consider spreading your lessons out a bit. Nothing you can do about it as we all have to go through it, but I thought it might be worth warning you. Dave    Report

01/07/2003, 5:24 PM Jason Matthews Joined on 04/04/2003 Posts 50 Re: QNH and QFE ? pete, the workload when coming in to land/ circuit is probably the highest throughout your entire flight (!) and it is tiring! i remember once on base leg, after a few hours training in a c152, that i moved the mixture control from rich to lean instead of reducing the throttle! with a horrified face, my instructor hastily returned it to rich. i also remember forgetting what i had to do on a number of occasions whilst in the circuit which i was advised as being quite normal due to the high workload. my first solo on the otherhand was superb. everything that i had learned slotted into place; i remembered exactly what to do and exactly when to do it. i think the perfect weather conditions helped but then you will not do your first solo without perfect weather conditions! from then on, i just got more eager to fly, did all the exams, and then my qualifying cross country which i remember as simply another fantastic experience in itself! i did my first solo after about 23 hrs, q x-country after about 40 hrs and got my ppl after about 50 hours. if i had to do my ppl again, i would commit more time to study at the start and spend less time at work but then it can be a difficult balance. and it doesn't help to keep changing instructors!    Report

04/07/2003, 8:49 AM Pete Murphy Joined on 06/04/2003 Posts 46 Re: QNH and QFE ? Hi Dave, The Flying School i goto don't charge you any king of landing fees, but i'll check that out as regards to the touch and go exercises, thanks for the advice anyway. I'll get back to you when i've got something else to worry about, i'm sure there are a thounsand things waiting for me. I'm almost ready ( I Think ) for the Air-Law exam, as i've done nothing but read and re-read it over the last couple of weeks, and i just tried a couple of questions from the PPL confuser and i got those right, so fingers crossed, do you know of any online web resources as regards to the exams, like extra practise questions ? Pete    Report

04/07/2003, 9:04 AM Pete Murphy Joined on 06/04/2003 Posts 46 Re: QNH and QFE ? Hi Jason, I know what you mean about being tired, so far my lessons are only lasting 40-45 mins but i feel really tired when we've landed, i don't know how i'll go on when they get longer, i make sure i have plenty of rest prior to my lessons and get an early night, but it makes no difference. I feel very eager to keep flying now after only a couple of lessons, so if it gets even better i can't wait, the mistakes i'm making though i feel like they are basic and i should know them, but i can take heart from my instructor as he says i'm doing well, even if it's to build my confidence up, plus there is this group as well which as helped a lot. Thanks for you advice anyway, i think it's just a case of getting on with it and see how it goes, hopefully i'll have my PPL before i run out of ££££££££ as i like to complete things when i start them. Pete    Report

04/07/2003, 9:54 AM David May Joined on 15/04/2003 Posts 48 Re: QNH and QFE ? Hi Pete That's a good point - I'd forgotten some schools have an arrangement where landing fees etc are waived (or even some airfields don't charge). I suppose it depends on the airfield. Southend is pretty big and just trying to expand a bit to get passenger flights back on the map. (they had to go to cargo only a while back because of CAA regulations). Maybe I need to look around as even if I pay a bit more for the actual lesson I could save in the long run on other fees. Cheers Dave    Report

04/07/2003, 10:49 AM Leland Vandervort Joined on 30/06/2003 Posts 184 Re: QNH and QFE ? In response to Jane Giffould: I actually have a "favourite pet peave" about the use of QSY. The number of times I've heard this used by pilots (incorrectly, I might add) makes me wonder if they've been former CB folks (who also tend to use Q codes completely incorrectly). Strictly speaking, QSY means "YOU change frequency". If using it to mean "I'm changing frequency" they should be using QSW. In general though, for aviation usage you should generally just say "request change to on frequency xxx.x" simple and no way to confuse it. (Note the word order is CHANGE TO ... ON FREQUENCY xxx, rather than 'change frenquency to xxx.x' since the word "to" can be misheard.) A few other pet peaves which I hear daily on the radio are the usage of "Roger Wilco" and "Over and Out" (don't laugh, there are still a lot of pilots AND CONTROLLERS who use them). Both of these are somewhat self-contradictory, the second moreso than the first. Remember that "Roger" simply means "I have received and understood your transmission [but will not necessarily do anything about it]", where "Wilco" means "I have received and understood the transmission and WILL COMPLY with it". "Over" and "Out" are just too Hollywood-ish to even comment on. ;) Back to the other Q's.. the way I learned them: QNH = Not Home (i.e not the airfield itself) QFE = Field Elevation QDM = Direct-me Magnetic QTE = True bEaring QGH = Get me Home (from above this cloud layer) Leland UK JAR-FCL1 PPL G0SZP / AA2QX (Amateur Radio)    Report

04/07/2003, 12:00 PM Jason Matthews Joined on 04/04/2003 Posts 50 Re: QNH and QFE ? leland, i think we will hear less q codes as the years progress. the only q codes that come to mind when i was learning were simply qfe and qnh, and qdm of course. i don't think any pilots in the past four years or so would have got their rt licence using qsw, etc. i was never taught qsw in pilot training; we used request change to..., etc. with that said and done, i am by no means the best rt user and i make mistakes on the radio just like others but i do correct them. totally agree about the mistakes of roger and wilco but then you hear pilots making 'requests' to a/g! i guess, at the end of the day, all pilots should make their intensions known to the controller and it helps to be in a unified and correct manner. but also, as a pilot (ppl) i listen to the intensions of other pilots and expect them to listen to mine and if somebody uses some kind of code that i don't understand then i will not be able understand their intensions. i can't say i've heard over and out though but i know it'll make me chuckle when i do!    Report

05/07/2003, 11:54 AM Jane Giffould Joined on 18/05/2003 Posts 118 Re: QNH and QFE ? Andrew et al Thanks for info on Q codes. Have just checked out the website, http://www.kloth.net/radio/qcodes.php. It is very informative and I see that the lettering of the Q codes seems to be very random without the letters having particular reference to the detail of the Question/Answer. Jane 2E1IKI    Report

05/07/2003, 1:35 PM Rk Joined on 05/07/2003 Posts 1 Re: QNH and QFE ? Getting back to QNH and QFE, wait until you try to understand transition altitudes! Isn't it about time we scrapped Regional QNH's, and raised the transistion altitude to say 10,000 feet. This may reduce a lot of confusion to the inexperienced and prevent level busts to the experienced. If we all flew on the nearest aerodrome QNH it be much easier to fly around or through control zones knowing we were on the correct pressure setting. In the event of an engine failure we would have a better idea of how far we are above local terrain. We live in a small country and there is always an airfield near by to obtain a local QNH. For remote regions like centre of Wales or Scotland lets just have a Welsh Regional setting or Scottish regional. Regional pressures may be useful when low pressure systems move rapidly across country, but it the responsibility of pilots to obtain frequent updates of QNH. In any case if pressure is that rapidly changing perhaps you shouldn't be flying in bad weather or possibly IMC at above safe altitude.    Report

06/07/2003, 1:43 AM Leland Vandervort Joined on 30/06/2003 Posts 184 Re: QNH and QFE ? Hi Jane, At the risk of getting somewhat off topic from the original thread: Actually the Q codes are not as "random" as they may seem. They are organised in blocks depending on certain services or contexts. The majority of the purely "radio" specific Q codes will be found in the QR. and QS. range... Most of the specifically aviation related ones will between QF. and QN. General navigation (nautical or aeronautical) are spread around a bit, (mostly in QD.) but the logic is there (more or less). Originally they were strictly split into services or contexts, as more were added over time, however, there were more and more overlaps. Other procedural signals were also invented (usually they are locally significant) using Z-codes, but these are way beyond the scope of this forum. Regards, Leland    Report

08/07/2003, 11:42 AM David May Joined on 15/04/2003 Posts 48 Re: QNH and QFE ? Leland I think Pete and myself went about as off topic as you can get without starting a new thread so I wouldn't worry too much about that. As I'm in the early stages of learning I haven't looked into the Q codes in much detail yet so this is very interesting stuff for me, especially as about 20 years ago I was a radio operator in the Royal Navy and this is bringing back loads of memories. I'd also just like to say to everyone that pilot forums are much more friendly than those in the IT community where I work. Everyone here seems genuinely interested in helping each other and sharing knowledge. Very refreshing. Dave    Report

09/07/2003, 10:02 PM Pete Murphy Joined on 06/04/2003 Posts 46 Re: QNH and QFE ? Hi Dave, I think your 100% right about going off topic but doesn't it say PPL Training at the top of the page ?? does this mean we're in trouble ;-) Your also right about how friendly everyone is, I know what you mean about the IT industry mate as I work in it as well, but this forum is spot on and I've got loads of advice from other members since I've been flying and it's appreciated 100% I did my first Circuit's last Saturday, the cloud was to low to do the second part of the stalls exercises. I'm really starting to enjoy it now and I can't wait to go Solo, I wouldn't have said that a few weeks ago, I think I'm getting to grips with the landing configuration, I know I've got a lot more of practise to do but most of my previous worries over it are stating to go away, on my second or third time round the Circuit my instructor hardly had to tell me anything like watching my speed etc, so things look like they're starting to sink in. Pete    Report

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