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30/07/2003, 10:06 PM GEORGE MCNEIL Joined on 06/05/2003 Posts 20 Re: FAA CPL The requirements for an FAA ATP (H) are 1200 hrs total flight time plus a bunch of experience caveats (500 hours cross country, 100 night, 75 instrument/sim instrument, 75 PIC etc.. identified in FAR 61.161. see http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf for the exact details. As an active flight instructor, you would likely meet most of these by the time you had accumulated your 1200 hours. However obtaining the rating has no set price, it would depend on what experience requirements you did not meet. So the flight costs may be zero or quite high depending on what sort of flying you had been doing. For example most primary student instructors would probably fall somewhat short of the cross country, night and instrument requirements. The time to obtain these if you were working full time as a flight instructor is a variable !!! The hourly rates if you had to buy the time are on my previous e-mail. The written would be around $2000. We employ our own students with very few exceptions, not a guarantee but a reasonable expectation. See www.universalheli.com --- George    Report

31/07/2003, 2:46 PM James Drysdale Joined on 28/07/2003 Posts 18 Re: FAA CPL Looked at the website, sounds impressive and quite promising. Will be doing lots of maths now to formulate some overall prices before talking to the bank manager! Might be some months down the line yet before I make and definite decisions of course. The decision to do this training, and in America, has already been made however! Found out you're originally from Edinburgh... me too! Lived in many houses there. My Dad still lives there near the base of the Pentlands at Hillend. A friend of mine (next door neighbour) has just finished his PPL(A) at Edinburgh, no doubt he'll end up in the US as well! thanks George    Report

12/08/2003, 9:25 AM Matthew McGlynn Joined on 11/08/2003 Posts 6 Re: FAA CPL Hi Guys, Great thread by the way. I could really use your advice. To give you a little bit of a background I am 30 years old with a wife and 12 month old daughter. Right now I'm working in a office as a business analyst. I earn about £30,000 a year which is a nice amount but I'm bored senseless. The idea of working in an office for the next 30 years is frankly frightening. So I have decided its time for a change in career. I am thinking of going for the FAA CPL. But I'm worried about employment at the end of it. Its great to hear that there should be an opportunity to work as a flight instructor once qualified. Could someone give me an Idea of the sort of wages a flight instructor can expect to get? I am willing to take out a loan to get the necessary training; my only concern is with paying it back! Also once you have enough hours under your belt how difficult is it to find work other than as a flight instructor? Any information on how much a fully qualified pilot could expect to earn would be a great help. Please don’t get me wrong and think I am only interested in the money. Becoming a professional Helicopter pilot would be a dream come true. But I have to be realistic about the financial side of things. Any advice will be gratefully received. Matt.    Report

15/08/2003, 11:02 AM Rick Larkin Joined on 27/06/2003 Posts 88 Re: FAA CPL Matt, Wassup. The prospects of getting employment as even an instructor in the UK with an FAA CPL are not great at the moment to be perfectly honest. The only reason I'm doing my FAA rating is because 1. It's not that difficult to obtain and 2. a flight school nearby are getting an american registered helicopter because of the volume of people wishing to do the FAA PPL. The problem lies with my second reason, you can only get paid to fly an American or 'N' reg helicopter with an FAA licence. Because of the beaurocracy (spelling?) of the CAA, any FAA licence is only accepted as a PPL in the UK with regard to aircraft registered in the UK. Many people do the FAA licence and then fly in the US or Australia or lots of other places but if you have settled with your family that might be difficult! The only other option is to see if any flight schools are running American registered machines or plan to in the future or if there are any privately owned US registered machines looking for a pilot. Problem with that is experience, owners will want you to have a lot of hours before they give you the keys. I'm not sure about money in the UK, instructors over here get paid in the region of €35/per flying hour, or negotiate a salary. This all may seem negative, but don't be put off, you could do the JAA CPL and get work quite easily, although this will take more time and cost more money. Even if you chose the FAA licence, you may still come through with a bit of perseverance. Maybe others with more knowledge of the UK industry could help you more, my knowledge about it is quite limited. Give Heli-Air in Wellesbourne a ring (www.heli-air.co.uk) they will be able to give you more information. Hope I've been of some help, Rick.    Report

18/08/2003, 2:36 PM Matthew McGlynn Joined on 11/08/2003 Posts 6 Re: FAA CPL Rick, Thanks for the reply. Taking what you have said into consideration I think it’s the JAA route for me. I hope to operate out of the UK once qualified. So the initial pain of this longer and more expensive route will pay off in the end. To be honest I’m finding it quite difficult to get good information on employment as a helicopter pilot in the UK. The link you suggested isn’t working at the moment. Are there any other sites you would recommend checking out? How is your course going? How close are you to completing it? Thanks again for the advice it really has helped. Regards, Matt.    Report

18/08/2003, 8:04 PM James Drysdale Joined on 28/07/2003 Posts 18 Re: FAA CPL quite point from me also... what sort of salary might I expect to earn in both the US and the UK? Obviously a major cosideration when it comes to repaying what looks for me to be a huuuuge loan. James    Report

18/08/2003, 11:13 PM GEORGE MCNEIL Joined on 06/05/2003 Posts 20 Re: FAA CPL James, in the US you could expect to start as a new CFII at around $20/hour rising to perhaps $30/hour after a year - this would be about $30,000 a year up to $45000 a year if you can book 7 hours a day (combination of flight and ground instruction given). Can't help on the UK numbers. After you leave flight instruction, starting salaries are not that much different than your final flight instructor rate but rise from there as you gain experience and seniority. $60,000 and up is not unusual after a number of years on the line.    Report

19/08/2003, 9:54 AM Rick Larkin Joined on 27/06/2003 Posts 88 Re: FAA CPL Matthew, I am taking my fundamentals of instructing and flight/ground instructor written exams next week, and my combined FAA PPL/CPL/CFI flight test on September 10th, all the flying is done. I am scheduled to start work on Sep 11th, so long as the re-registration of the companies helicopter goes on track. It's nessecary for me to do the PPL flight test as the only FAA certificate I currently hold is PPL (A). The site may have been www.heliair.co.uk , I'm not sure if there is hyphen in the address or not, apologies. It is difficult to find information about training, working in Europe, but from the digging I did (and this is what sent me on the FAA route) there are 6 or 7 exams for the JAA licence, and a lot of ground school (I think you can do this by distance learning if you like). Once you get qualified there should not be much trouble getting a job as there is a general shortage. Others may have a different opinion of that but I know from at home (Ireland) there is a crying shortage of helicopter pilots. In fact, there are apparently more helicopters here than pilots. The stats change quickly though, so make sure you have researched as much as possible before you take the plunge and see the man at the bank.    Report

20/08/2003, 5:04 PM James Drysdale Joined on 28/07/2003 Posts 18 Re: FAA CPL Rick, what do you know about converting FAA licences to JAA? Going to the US to do my training looks appealing due to the reduced cost. However, I'm not entirely sure I would want to stay out there indefinitely so converting my licences to JAA to take the 'N'reg only aircraft situation out of the equation would be ideal. Is it easy to about? Is it worth it? And... silly question probably... does it cost a bloody fortune? thanks James    Report

20/08/2003, 11:37 PM GEORGE MCNEIL Joined on 06/05/2003 Posts 20 Re: FAA CPL James, let me have a go at answering your question. Typically the cost of R22 dual training in the UK is around £220 per hour including VAT, sometimes more. Remember in the UK, landing and navigation fees are payable on top and this can rack up the bill. Also some schools make you pay a club membership and insurance premium as well. In the US there are no landing, navigation, membership or insurance premium fees. In the US, most schools charge around $210 (£140) per hour including tax. Ground instruction is extra in both locations - count on £ for dollars on flight and ground. You will need in the UK about 200 hours total which includes approx 30 hours for the CPL modular and 30 hours approx for FI. The first 140 hours can be done as part of your FAA CPL and CFI(I) although you will need about 170 to finish your FAA CFI and 185 hours to finish CFII. So the savings are approx 140 hours times £80 per hour minimum. Work it out. Against that you have costs to get to the US, living costs while there and you have to buy study material, sit your knowledge and practical exams and get a second class FAA medical. As I said in an earlier e-mail you can expect to finish your FAA CFII from scratch in about seven months full time. The pluses are you would have FAA ratings, get the flight hours much more quickly since you can fly 365 days a year (if you pick the right location !), and gain some great experience in another flying environment. In any case, best to do it on a full time basis whichever you chose. --- George (you can contact me at george.mcneil@universalheli.com if you want to go deeper away from this thread !!)    Report

21/08/2003, 11:43 AM Rick Larkin Joined on 27/06/2003 Posts 88 Re: FAA CPL James, Converting an FAA CPL to a JAA is version is an absolute pain in the ass. Sorry to be blunt, but the beauraucracy in europe is so vivd and thick it could almost provide a stable diet for an entire african nation. As far as I know, no matter if you have an FAA ATPL and 25000 hours and you work as a test pilot on sundays for Nasa, when you come to the UK or europe your licence is automatically counted as a PPL only. If you want to convert you have to sit all the JAA ground exams (in fact I think you may have to take the ground school too which is a couple of hundred hours) then you have to do some flying, get a JAA medical, take a JAA flight test and pay all the fees associated with this. Some say the cost could be as high as £5000 to convert an FAA CPL to a JAA CPL (that's without the instructors rating). My advice is if your young and somewhat mobile as to where you can stay, pick up the pegs and go work in the states, when you have the licence and experience you can head off to almost anywhere in the world where the american licence is recognised as very valuable. Blue skies buddy, Rick.    Report

29/08/2003, 5:19 PM Rebel Aviator Joined on 26/10/2002 Posts 132 Re: FAA CPL Rick If all the experience is JAA the FAA will only give you PPL privelages as well so not a one way street.    Report

08/09/2003, 1:19 PM James Drysdale Joined on 28/07/2003 Posts 18 Re: FAA CPL hi all... I need more opinions on possible starting salaries of both Uk and US instructors, most interested in US wages however as this is where I'm likely to be doing my training. How far does money go in the States? Trying to figure out if I can realistically afford to live on a starting salary and pay off what will be a huge loan at the same time. thanks James    Report

09/09/2003, 2:18 PM James Drysdale Joined on 28/07/2003 Posts 18 Re: FAA CPL can anyone point me in the direction of companies who provide JAA heli training in the USA? ie. with no conversions required on returning to a JAR state. thanks James    Report

12/09/2003, 10:07 PM Rick Larkin Joined on 27/06/2003 Posts 88 Re: FAA CPL Ian, If you do the FAA flight test they give you full priviledges, the JAA insist upon completing ground exams.    Report

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