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06/09/2009, 7:19 PM Dominic Joined on 11/03/2008 Colchester, Essex, UK Posts 6 Flying Arrangement Request Dear pilots, I don’t know if this a frequent request, and/or whether I should have addressed it via another channel; any guidance on the matter greatly appreciated. Assuming that a trainee can only log hours as a P/UT if the flight captain has the Instructor Rating (please advise if I’m wrong about this), I am looking to arrange a reciprocally beneficial agreement whereby I can get some flight practice (as P/UT) while someone else with an Instructor Rating can increase their hours. Although I’ve done a lot of the theory (including use of Microsoft Flight Simulator X with a Yoke and Rudder control), I’ve only done 6 hours in the air in a C152/C172 over a 4 year period, despite getting the “bug” after my first flight. I have a good grasp of manoeuvres, some idea of navigation techniques, a little radio experience, but I’ve never done a solo circuit or landing. Due to work and wife/daughter commitments, I’m quite busy and we don’t have that much disposable income. I live in the CO6 (Marks Tey) area of Colchester in Essex, so my nearest airfield is Earls Colne (EGSR) and I would really love to hook up with someone that could help as I’m eager to find a way to pursue my ambition of getting my PPL one day! An example of my idea of a good arrangement, would be to fly cross country and share as many aspects of the flight as possible - in return, I would pay for the fuel. I understand that this could be construed as a circumvention of the standard and more expensive route of formal training, so I do hope it does not offend anyone. Many thanks for any advice, suggestions, or offers. Dominic    Report

07/09/2009, 12:07 AM Aviator|Chris Joined on 28/01/2009 EGBW Posts 378 Re: Flying Arrangement Request What would be in it for the Instructor - considering that he could build his own hours while working for a flying club (assuming he wants to work up to ATPL as some actually enjoy instructing like mine!! 8o) )? The cost in the end would probably be close to club costs anyway, when you count for fuel, renting the aircraft, landing fees etc? From what you've said I fail to see the benefits or the actual idea behind the "plan".    Report

07/09/2009, 12:31 PM Dominic Joined on 11/03/2008 Colchester, Essex, UK Posts 6 Re: Flying Arrangement Request Thanks Chris, it appears that my "plan" has been more offensive than I intended. As stressed in my email, I am aware this might not be conventional (or appropriate it seems), and was hoping for some constructive alternatives.  I don't know if fuel is 10% of the total cost or 70%, so I certainly wasn't trying to take anyone for a mug. The reason behind my idea was that I was recently speaking to a pilot at a social event and they suggested that I try and speak to other pilots online due to my lack of free time.  "Hanging out" at my local airfield for ten hours a week just to socialise has been suggested, but I'm so busy with life I think I'd struggle so any time I could spend there I'd like to be in the air. I'm sorry to have wasted your time Chris, but if anyone else has any other ideas please based on my first email please can you let me know, Many thanks    Report

07/09/2009, 4:13 PM Aviator|Chris Joined on 28/01/2009 EGBW Posts 378 Re: Flying Arrangement Request Hi Dominic, Your message is not in the least offensive - just trying to see what you hope to achieve so we can help you by saving money and offering good advice. If you wish to share a flight with a fellow pilot (PPL Holder) then you are stuck with the 50/50 rule when it comes to sharing costs, as a PPL license rule states that if any money is charged for a flight, the pilot must pay an equal share of the costs. When it comes to Instructors, I'm not sure how it works to be honest. I would think that if they charged for their services as "self-employed" they would have their own personal company and ways of taking payment for their services etc. If you look at the costs for renting an aircraft of your club, plus an hour of fuel at the burn rate indicated in the aircraft log-book then you get an idea of how much it will cost regardless of how you choose to do it. I highly recommend socialising with other pilots though, when possible. Otherwise, gather your study materials and start reading. Save up your money for lessons and then you can have a few short bursts in the air to use your knowledge. Its tough but if you want it badly enough - you will find a way. Kindest Regards.    Report

08/09/2009, 5:28 PM Dominic Joined on 11/03/2008 Colchester, Essex, UK Posts 6 Re: Flying Arrangement Request Great, thanks for the advice Chris,   I've done the following calculations.  Would you mind sparing a few minutes to check that I've got it right, and also help with my final point?   Cessna 172, Jet-A fuel Typical approx fuel burn per hour: 8 Gallons/36.4 Litres Jet-A fuel costs: £0.69 + VAT per Litre = £0.79 1 Hour = approx £29   Cessna 152, 100LL Typical approx fuel burn per hour: 5 Gallons/22.7 Litres 100LL fuel costs: £0.98 + VAT per Litre = £1.13 1 Hour = approx £25.70   Landing fees Vary between £5 and £12 depending on airifield/membership status etc.   My local airfield is Earls Colne, and the only hire information is at http://www.anglianflightcentres.co.uk/prices.shtml, which doesn't seem to explain how much non PPL hire of an aircraft costs; I guess because most of the aircraft are privately owned?   Would I be out of order to put a message on their forums about sharing flight costs 50%/50%, and how would it work if they owned the plane; surely 50/50 isn't fair in this case?   Thanks again for any advice,   Dom    Report

08/09/2009, 6:08 PM Aviator|Chris Joined on 28/01/2009 EGBW Posts 378 Re: Flying Arrangement Request Hi Dominic, Because your situation is an unusual one - its hard to find all the right information at the beginning. If you think about the situation from a Flying Club perspective... Your potencial Instructor who you will arrange to fly with, will rent an aircraft from the club and teach you to fly in it. But the club isn't getting your custom as a PPL student and the club would also need to do a check-ride with the Instructor before he could hire an aircraft from their club. This would incur a cost by itself unless the Instructor is already a member of their club. As most clubs do - they offer two payment choices. Either as PPL hire (so you can fly around on your PPL license) or Instruction (which includes the flying club instructor's rates on top). I dont even know if clubs allow external instructors to teach in their aircraft. Wouldn't make sense to me as it would do them out of business? Also during lessons while you are perfecting your skills, you possibly don't always fly perfectly in balance and therefore add an inefficiency to the flight. The payment seems low at the link provided, and I guess this is because the cost is not a "Wet" price, but a "Dry" price. Which might indicate fuel and possibly oil costs may need to be added on top. As you are aware as a 6-hour student (so not teaching you to suck eggs), when you book out an aircraft out you state how much oil is present, and how much fuel is present in the tanks after the walk-around. The difference will be charged onto your total price at the end dependent on the time flown, and the estimated fuel usage based on fuel burn. So at the end of all the working out you have the following costs incurred (*=possibly). 1). Instructors check-ride with the flying club * 2). Instructors costs for his time. 3). Instructor to become a member of the club for Insurance Purposes* 4). Price for Hiring a Club Aircraft - Cessna 152 (£111.57) Cessna 172 (£144.86) 5.) Price for Fuel for your 1 Hour - Cessna 152 (£25.70) Cessna 172 (£29.00)    ... Total without Instructors costs - Cessna 152 (£137.27) Cessna 172 (£173.86) I dare say costs including a non-club instructor would out-weigh the clubs own Instruction cost - and thats assuming you can teach people to fly using another clubs aircraft! That just rings alarm bells for me as a No-No. So a cost which might seem cheaper at the start - in classic GA style - ends up costing you more. Very much like going to the U.S. to gain a PPL then trying to adapt with the way things are done back here. I met a chap who spent a few weeks in France to gain his PPL. Better weather and still taught the same syllabus.      Report

11/09/2009, 8:26 AM Dominic Joined on 11/03/2008 Colchester, Essex, UK Posts 6 Re: Flying Arrangement Request Thanks for all your help Chris. I did suspect that the likelihood of this being a legitimate alternative was quite minimal - everyone would be doing it otherwise. After due consideration it seems my best route is to wait until I can afford the time and money to go the standard PPL route; at least I won’t be wondering about whether I’m missing out on another way! Kind regards, Dom    Report

11/09/2009, 11:31 AM Anthony Tester Joined on 24/09/2007 Vienna Posts 106 Re: Flying Arrangement Request Hi Dominic, Just to add my thoughts. You'll probably find out, even if this is feasible, and the evidence shown above indicates that this isn't the case, you'd be fairly limited in what you'd be able to achieve i.e. no solo as you wouldn't be insured for it. In the past I too have looked for ways of circumnavigating what I believed to be unecessary costs, in my case this was merely the cost of flying 12 hours in order to remain current on single engine aircraft, ultimately I discovered that i might save a few pounds, but the hassle out weighed the saving and in my case i lapsed (I'm fortunate enough to regularly fly a 20ton beast). So I can genuinely sympathise but have to agree with Chris and say, just like me, you'll have to wait until you can afford it. Best of luck, Anthony    Report

12/09/2009, 10:18 AM Dominic Joined on 11/03/2008 Colchester, Essex, UK Posts 6 Re: Flying Arrangement Request Thanks Anthony, I'm amazed at how helpful the pilot community is, and look forward to indulging in this passion properly in a few years when I've saved some!! Best wishes, Dom    Report

13/09/2009, 12:16 AM Aviator|Chris Joined on 28/01/2009 EGBW Posts 378 Re: Flying Arrangement Request Hi Dom, I think it comes from the fact that we get to enjoy something that very few people get to see - peace. Its a strange way to go looking for peace, but thats exactly what I see up there. I find as I'm flying, a wonderful sense of relaxation in myself from what my eyes are seeing and how beautiful everything is.  A greater appreciation for being up there with a deeper respect of being able to fly like a bird, and to share that with another person.    Report

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