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05/07/2008, 12:01 PM morecambebaz Joined on 05/07/2008 Posts 1 Air Trafic Controllers Pablo Mason says "..controllers talk to light aircraft pilots with the most unbelievable arrogance and contempt" . I wonder if, they need re-naming Air Traffic Supervisors. This could reduce the odd attitude problem.    Report

06/07/2008, 9:52 AM hawkins52@btinternet.com Joined on 06/08/2006 Posts 120 Re: Air Trafic Controllers In my experience there may be some arrogant air traffic controllers, but they are a minority.  Most controllers are polite and helpful when dealing with light aircraft pilots.  There have been times when I have been amazed at the calmness and patience of ATC when dealing with some PPL's who do not appear to have any idea of what they are doing or what is required of them.  I wonder how these pilots managed to obtain a licence.    Report

12/07/2008, 11:10 AM Koolflyer Joined on 11/07/2008 Posts 1 Re: Air Trafic Controllers Ok Pablo's first two paragraphs in "Go Flying" may well be quite right, but, come on we're not all like that! There is absolutely no excuse for ATC to be rude and arrogant to any pilot, and if he/she is, should have their butts kicked!  However reading on through the article it becomes fairly clear that he is having a rather sarcastic swipe at ATC, especially at the medium to large airfields! Why?...may be he has his own axe to grind for some reason! It may be news to him, but there is very high percentage of controller's who practice the art of flying as well, both privately and commercially.  There is even a higher percentage of controller's and AFISO's who try their damnest to promote good relations throughout the flying community by arranging visits to ATC and talks etc. I'm quite sure that most pilot's have a good relationship with ATC in general, after all we are all in the same business of moving/flying aeroplanes, but I'm surprised this article was even published as all it does is to promote that terribly old fashioned "them and us" situation which has no place in aviation. Finally, I'm quite sure not many of us ATCO's think of ourselves as "supermen" or "superwomen", may be Pablo does, after all he's had a lot of the tax payers money spent on him!    Report

14/07/2008, 10:29 AM Kirsten Corrigan Joined on 29/02/2008 Posts 11 Re: Air Trafic Controllers In response to Koolflyer - your thoughts and opinions are really appreciated and this type of discussion is exactly what we need. We are not trying to promote a "them and us" situation but rather air these issues and give everyone the chance to put across an opinion. Pablo is never going to sit on the fence and that's why we're interested in his thoughts - and why we'd like for our readers to pipe up when they disagree. Personally I agree that we should be doing all we can to foster a productive relationship here so by airing these concerns it helps us to all understand each other's point of view more clearly. I'd love to hear more from the many PPLs who also work in ATC - what is their take on the situation and how can we lean to work more effectively together? Thanks Kirsten Online editor/deputy editor Go Flying    Report

19/07/2008, 8:56 PM Flightlevels Joined on 19/07/2008 Posts 4 Re: Air Trafic Controllers It says everything when 'Air Traffic Controllers' is not even spelt correctly! When Pablo states that ''they (controllers) spend their lives talking to a lot of people who are (professional)!'' he is talking arrant nonsense - so much so that I'm not surprised he was sacked by his former employer. In fact he's got such a motor mouth he must be Michael O'Leary in disguise. Signed Ivory Tower Man      Report

21/07/2008, 1:59 PM Kirsten Corrigan Joined on 29/02/2008 Posts 11 Re: Air Trafic Controllers Unfortunately the person who started the thread may have missed a letter from the word traffic but it seems we all make the odd spelling mistake... unless "arrant" nonsense is something I'm unaware of! As a self-confessed Ivory Tower inhabitant, maybe you could advise how you think relations could be improved between pilots and ATC - that really is the issue.    Report

23/07/2008, 7:06 PM Flightlevels Joined on 19/07/2008 Posts 4 Re: Air Trafic Controllers ''Arrant'' - Downright, unmitigated according to the Pocket Oxford English Dictionary. Utter; complete according to the Compact OED. On a more serious note, I think that the relationship between pilots and ATC is generally a favourable one. I merely object to the sneering, superior tone of Pablo which was, in all probability, meant to elicit a reaction. As a former inhabitant of an 'Ivory Tower' at 'XYZ International' and a current 'XYZ International' Approach Controller I can also vouch that most crews are indeed professional. On a daily basis and despite what Pablo thinks, however, pilots make far more 'mistakes' than myself and my ATC colleagues, as evidenced by the number of reports we have to (compulsorily) file. As a recent example, how can you possibly try to land on a runway closed to landing traffic (work in the undershoot) with no ILS radiating and having been given the correct runway on the ATIS and on three separate occasions during Intermediate Approach? If Pablo had ever followed his own advice and visited a 'busy' ATC environment then I'm sure that he wouldn't have written his diatribe and anyway, what exactly is wrong with being 'over familiar' with controllers? Many of my good friends are pilots, I have a number of hours (in the hundreds) myself and my son is a pilot and there is no disadvantage to being familiar unless, of course, you want to remain aloof and superior.    Report

26/07/2008, 12:15 AM Flightlevels Joined on 19/07/2008 Posts 4 Re: Air Trafic Controllers This mornings example - when you are given and acknowledge a heading of 295 degrees you subsequently fly North and only then query the initial heading. Prompt remedial action (made by the underling controller) precludes a loss of separation and subsequent embarrassment of the 'professional' pilot . Nuff said.    Report

26/07/2008, 11:44 PM Flightlevels Joined on 19/07/2008 Posts 4 Re: Air Trafic Controllers And yet another of Pablo's 'professionals' encountered today. Flies straight through the holding stack (which was his clearance limit) and asks to intercept the ILS at FL110 at 18DME. Maybe I should have been an Air Traffic Supervisor for a few minutes and watched what he did next, the only problem being that he was number eight or nine to land at the time may have compromised a few other innocents. Where do they get these people from?    Report

31/07/2008, 5:13 AM ATCO Joined on 31/07/2008 Posts 1 Re: Air Trafic Controllers OK lets get a few facts out here. PPLs - off which I am one (and a busy London Terminal area controller) are responsible the greater proportion of Controlled Airspace Infringements and the primary cause is the inability to navigate adequately often compounded by out of date charts (which is illegal) and an over reliance on GPS.    PPL's often have an extremely poor quality of RT and generally display an inability to fly their aircraft accurately either vertically of laterally. It is no surprise that many controllers talk to PPL pilots with a  lack of patience as they are probably expecting an increase in workload disproportionate to the volume of traffic and some sort of other difficulty. Luckily my airspace does not see many PPL's and I will resist them entering if possible. The airspace is simply too busy for that type of aviation and even if you argue that every one has a place in CAS the mobile chicane that is created trying to provide 3nm separation around something doing 100kts amongst jets flying at 250 kts +. creates the most unbelievable high workload and may lead to incidents. I personally object to Pablo's ridiculous statements and although we would like to help everyone it is quite simply the case that much CAS in the UK is no place for a PPL to go and Play - It should be remembered PABLO that the controllers are the professionals and the PPL's amateurs and as such the PPL community as a whole need to take more responsibility and become more professional in their actions - only then will professional controllers take them seriously. This article has infuriated me and feel that Pablo has crossed the boundary proving only his total lack of appreciation for professional aviation in the UK. It is also poor show on the part of the magazine to publish such inflammatory articles that are so lacking in substance.          Report

01/08/2008, 9:39 AM TC ATCO Joined on 01/08/2008 Posts 1 Re: Air Trafic Controllers I have a feeling that Pablo wrote this slightly tongue in cheek... if not it is very disappointing.  I reply as someone who had a career flying for the UK military and who is now an ATCO at TC (the LTMA). Firstly in response to Morecambebaz, Air Traffic Supervisors may well be a valid title for ATCOs who provide a FIS or even a RIS OUTCAS.  However, as Morecambebaz is no doubt very aware (if he flies INCAS at all); instructions INCAS are mandatory and the pilot must obey them unless they believe the safety of the aircraft is compromised.  If that happens to be the case, then reports are raised. This belief of a prejudice to safety can be caused by the fact that the pilot is actually flying the aircraft and is therefore aware of the aircrafts ability to carry out certain instructions (due to flight profiles) at specific points of the flight. The ATCO is aware of a hell of a lot more than the pilot when it comes to what is actually happening outside the cockpit regarding traffic situation.  The pilots and ATCOs, between them, ensure that the flight is conducted in a safe and expeditious manner.  For Pablo to write such drivel is laughable and only serves to create more of a 'them and us' attitude.  As ATCO states above, the majority of incidents within the LTMA, MTMA and Scottish TMA are caused by pilots in the GA community who for whatever reason get lost and stray into CAS. There can be genuine reasons for this, however the vast majority are caused by poor preparation or planning, or poor execution of plans.  NATS and other experts in aviation believe that the biggest single risk to the safety of commercial flying (i.e. to put it bluntly - the highest possible reason for a future mid air collision over the UK) is the unauthorised penetration of CAS by GA pilots. As such NATS has spent a lot of time and money educating the GA community by visiting flying clubs etc as well as developing tools to assist the controller in early detection of these intrusions. Members of this site should pay a visit to http://www.flyontrack.co.uk  -they may find it enlightening and helpful. Flying is a team game - some may say that there is far too much CAS, however the military actually have a larger chunk of the UK airspace than commercial aviation... something Pablo should be aware of.  There are always going to be some arrogant people, on either side of the microphone. I can fully understand a pilot being terse with me on the R/T if I do something which causes him or her alarm... the same way as I might sometime have to be stern with pilots (professional or GA - there are good and bad in both communities).  However the airwaves are not the place to bicker... if you feel as a pilot you have been hard done by, get on the phone once you have landed and have a civilised discussion... both you and the ATCO concerned might actually learn something.  Landing then bitching about something to your chums in the bar will not achieve any results. Finally, back to Morecambebaz - try to visit a local ATC unit - preferably one INCAS. 40 hours to get a PPL pales in comparison to the years it can take to get an ATCO licence... pilots (commercial and PPL holders) can virtually buy a licence if they have the money to throw at it and keep going back until they are successful... ATCOs and military pilots have to achieve a higher standard in a set amount of time (hours), otherwise they are out on their ear.  That, my friend, is one of the main differences between professional (not including commercial pilots here) and hobbyists. I know that debate is a good thing, however Pablo's comments only serve to increase the divide... I would hope that Pilotweb was actually responsible enough to realise this... or maybe the owners of this forum need to visit real ATC (INCAS) facilities as well?  It is quite sad that Pablo tries to lecture about professionalism when he himself was dismissed because he flagrantly disobeyed DfT and Company laws (however ridiculous those laws may be in that particular case).  To paraphrase Top Gun "His ego's writing cheques that his moustache can't cash"    Report

27/05/2009, 8:08 AM Morbz Joined on 06/02/2007 UK Posts 263 Re: Air Trafic Controllers  TC ATCO wrote: 40 hours to get a PPL pales in comparison to the years it can take to get an ATCO licence... pilots (commercial and PPL holders) can virtually buy a licence if they have the money to throw at it and keep going back until they are successful... ATCOs and military pilots have to achieve a higher standard in a set amount of time (hours), otherwise they are out on their ear.  That, my friend, is one of the main differences between professional (not including commercial pilots here) and hobbyists.   Not entirely sure what you mean here, do you mean all pilots can throw money at learning to fly and yet only ATCOs are the ones who truthfully get their licenses?  You say "(commercial and PPL holders) then later say "(not including commercial pilots)" Forgive my stupidity here but who exactly are you aiming the 'throw money' at statement? Maybe I'm just misreading it (which wouldnt be the first time) Morbz      Report

27/05/2009, 4:26 PM McGoo Joined on 15/11/2005 Posts 225 Re: Air Trafic Controllers Morbz, i'm not sure you will get a reply from TC ATCO as he/she hasn't logged in since August 2008 but I think the point they were making is pilots now can spend their way to the job. Take a trainee ATCO for example who works for NATS, if they don't keep up with the course or fail any stage NATS can either choose to recourse them or boot them out, same with the miltary, if they don't make a certain milestone in a certain timeframe, they can either be recoursed or booted out, with pilot training now, as most pilots are self-sponsored they can continue retaking or throwing money at courses until they either pass or give up.    Report

28/05/2009, 8:35 PM Morbz Joined on 06/02/2007 UK Posts 263 Re: Air Trafic Controllers McGoo Thanks, explained it well!  Totally right there, although it does sound like all pilots are just money throwers and somehow I dont like to agree on that ;o)    Report

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